But I must disagree with you on one point….All graphic novels cannot be called manga because of a similar art. Your comment: " If it’s drawn with the style and intent to be like a manga, then call it a manga" is problematic because what exactly IS the style & intent of a manga?

Manga is a story told through images..& in manga I have come across a wide variety of drawing styles & content/issues….moreover manga, manhwa & manhua(chinese) have different art styles, & within each category there are further different types of art/themes. So I think it would rather be safer to say that All of these are one and the same thing but named in different languages, ie graphic novels, manga, manhwa, manhua, etc are one and the same & u can call it any of them depending on your language of choice. This gives it more of a global feel & allows greater freedom to creativity without narrow definitions of 'manga' or 'comic'limiting them…

Also, I don't know a whole lot about the manga industry in general, but from what I understand, the manga industry in Japan is HUGE. I mean, really huge. It's an important part of their economy, even. That being said, most of the Japanese manga artists with top-selling manga (ie, the ones that generally make it here to North America and abroad) are artists who work with teams of other artists, and have been working for a while to become successful. Their manga are sleek, professional, and polished. At least the ones you see now. But often, if you go back into a manga artists' past and are able to find the first few manga they made, you can see marked differences in the quality of their art and the look of their manga. Everybody has to start somewhere. I think this is true of OEL – it's a much smaller industry that is in its infancy, really, leaving the artists to do a great deal more of the work themselves, and of course a smaller pool of artsits to choose from- not to mention (as other people have) that of course they are going to be influenced by other art styles from their own culture. That may explain why some people feel the art "isn't as good" as what they see in Japanese manga. I do agree that I think it's kind of silly to take the Japanese term for "comics" when we already have one, but at the same time the word has morphed into more than that to become a much broader definition of an art style, and not one that is particular to any one country. It may not have always been the case, but having studied linguistics I can tell you that taking a word that means one thing and adapting it to mean other things, or more things, is certainly NOT an uncommon phenomenon. Heck, the Japanese do it all the time with English words.

We can thank manga, and largely Tokyopop, for making comics cool around here, and allowing altnernate comic styles to come about – not just OEL manga, but also plenty of "regular" comics, and they certainly don't fall into the typical Marvel style "American" comics genre, either. Plenty of artists with valuable stories to tell and art to share are getting their stuff on the market, whether it's being called manga or not. Even if you don't like them, I think that manga has really opened the door for the popularity of comics in general (there are other contributing factors, but I honestly feel like, from my own observation, the explosion in manga popularity has made people more open-minded toward comics in general).

I'm terrible at making my points, but what I'm trying to say is, worldwide, manga is taking on a life of its own, as are all sorts of comics. I think that whatever a comic is labeled should be far less important than what is inside that comic's cover – if a comic that maybe isn't really manga gets called manga, mistakenly or otherwise, I think it's totally absurd to dismiss that work or feel angry towards the artists simply because it's "mislabeled."

I could say a lot more about comics and manga, but I've probably rambled enough for now xD

They have many meanings to different people, and it sounds like you got sold on the late 90's Tokyopop "Authentic Manga" label, which I'm guessing retroactively probably wasn't a good thing to label their titles for the industry [shooting themselves in the foot for their original works, which had been around since their Mixx days with Sushi Girl, and for other publishers, whether domestic manga or folks like VIZ].

Mystery is a Genre, so is Supense, Romance, Action Adventure, Fantasy, and even then these can meld and become somethingelse. As someone who's studied literature, I find your wording odd.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't negate other peoples, artist's own choices, or the longstanding history of domestic style works. Domestic manga have been around for over two decades now, and aren't going away- I also agree that TPop's choices [good and bad] play a large role in all of this- a number of experienced, critically praised comic artists and writers chose not to work with TP due to their poor terms, such as Lea Hernandez, Warren Ellis, and Adam Warren, and I think this hurt them- they could of had a lot of slick content with a built in audience of existing fans of these creators. It's someonelses victory though, as the graphic novel market continues to expand, and manga readers seek out more then just TP.

NB, those two examples are NOT Tpop works, which says something.

The problem is not OEL manga. The problem is Tpop. Specifically it was Tpop's cynical exploitation of the early manga market.

As Rivkah (another artist shafted by Tpop) described in her blog, TPop's marketing idea was akin to throwing spaghetti against a wall and seeing what sticks. Tpop chose to put out a flood of really, REALLY terrible OEL mangas and related products. As a result some people (years latter) still tar all OEL with the same brush and still assume something that is in manga style but written by someone with a Western name is an unimaginative, rip off.

It's good to see Tpop's suffocating and harmful hold on manga in the West is subsiding. Remember, they're not the only manga publishers out other!

Not really, manga is a specific genre, just as manhwa is a different one, and OEL are equally different. They may have similarities, but they are totaly different. Is supper man or batman a manga?

I hate normal comics such superman and batman, which is rather odd since at one point i was one of the largest fans of Green Lantern and GReen Arrow. If i judge a comic on the same levels as a manga, the comic will always lose because i hate them.

This is nothing beyond personal preference and nothing to be ashamed of. I like manga more than comics, and i probably always will.

However the problem with publishers is that they try and con you into buying something by selling it as one thing, when in fact it's another. Manga comes from japan. Manga as a term is simply just the japanese form of comic, (possibly, i dont know japanese). However it also means an entire style.

Manga comes from japan, always has and always will.

OEL comes from the west, whether its american, english, canadian or french. It's OEL. Manhwa and Manhua also come from different areas ad carry all their respective differences. THere are similarities, but there are more differences.

Also, in general, alot ofthe OEL i've read have been pure garbage. Though i have to admit i haven't read many of them, so far i've only found two or three that i can reccomend to others.

Most of the OEL i've read feel to fake, as though they're trying to hard to emulate manga rather than trying to find their own style. This strangles the story , and ends up killing it

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The more these discussions go about, knowing that it all really comes down to people's opinions is often the end result. People will label things as they will, as I call OELs global manga and Korean work, mahn-wa. It's my choice and I don't expect people to adhere to it.

However, I feel (as several of you have brought up), that it's a matter of inclusion and exclusion. I don't think it's fair from a personal, and even professional point, to not call something with the style and intent to be a manga, a manga since I suppose, overall, I see the word as a clasffication. It makes it very hard to market global manga if you label it as anything else, as it alienates it from its intended audience. Meanwhile those who avoid/don't read manga, wouldn't embrace it either.

While sometimes, undeniably, classification as a manga is done too lightly (often to the dismay of artists themselves), it's professional publishing and these books need to find their market.

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“For example flaws in japanese or korean stuff would be usually overlooked, but the same flaws in an OEL or chinese one would get negative points”

I have to agree with Tiamat on this note, though perhaps not for entirely the same reason. This is a thought I come across a lot, and have fallen victim to myself before. A lot of times people see manga-style graphic novels as nothing but a rip-off or copy of an existing style (ignoring how diverse manga as a style is), and look at it as "If you're going to do it, you may as well do it right!". It's not right, and many times people forget that global mangas are often an artist's first work, where as much of what we get translated here is an artist's work after years of publishing, practice and life in the profession.

Also on that note, I pick at art styles regardless of where the book came from because I suppose as an artist myself, little things that seem unbelievably overlooked or lazy in someway, just stand out to me a lot.

The things that Dramacon has in common with other manga and not American comics are conventions. You will never see Batman or Spiderman with a sweatdrop on their head, or turning into SD/Chibis.

You'll never see that happen in Berserk or Planetes either, which is why I specifically listed them as points of comparison. Does that mean they're not manga either?

[I love how companies keep coming up with terms to not peeve off purists, but purists still keep going- which all goes back to the artists can't win no matter what they do, and basically goes down to a lot of people's opinions, no matter how well worded, boiling to "Don't Draw Like That Cause I say so!" ]

I don't think critics have a right to tell me or anyonelse how they should be drawing, which is my primary issue with these kind of thoughts and opinions. They aren't based on quality, rather on some ephemeral idea that japanese artists have some kind of magical sparkle dust, or that drawing anything that's not a superhero comic makes your work crap. Both sides suck, and fandom sucks for it's willingness to go with these easy opinions. It's more fun to be a cynic, as they say.

I don't get how this is a good defense…. you might let it influence you, but it's still just an excuse.

Also, TP's not the only company producing OEL manga out there, and certainly weren't the first by a long shot. I kind of liked the term Amerimanga myself, which is abandoned due to fandom hate, but people are the way they are.

And Manwha and Manhua are just the korean and chinese pronounciatiosn of Manga. I'm sorry, but watching some of Japanese fandom's outright racism towards Korean manga over the years has left me with a bad taste. Shouldn't we try to elevate ourselves? And Tiamet, if you're seeing the same flaws in two different books, but only call one of them on it because it's not Asian, you do have to admit that's a little messed up. That's something you should try to improve upon, not brush aside.

TP is famous for trying to push korean, and OEL stuff into the manga label, which is wrong IMO.

As for OEL stuff getting reviewed and more limelight, i've not found it the case. Speaking for myself, as a reviewer ill read and reiew anything thats sent to me, whether it OEL, Korean, Chinese or Japanese. However different types have a better chance of getting a good review from me. For example flaws in japanese or korean stuff would be usually overlooked, but the same flaws in an OEL or chinese one would get negative points.

Thats because korean and japanese are my preference, and what i like. Only a few OEL have ever caused me to do a double take and end up loving the series. YSquare being one of them.

People seem to forget that reviewers are humans to, we have our own personal likes and dislikes, and these always influence our reviews. Whether we ant them to or not.

I view manga as an art style, with specific ways of telling a story, but with many exceptions and interpretations. Same with say, American comics, manhua, OEL manga or manhwa. They have their own quirks, but in the end, to me, they’re all “comic books”. Manga, manhua, and manhwa in their country merely MEAN comic books.

And it’s a little superficial to label comic, because artists’ drawings are all based on influences and their own personal tastes. A country’s artists might just gain a similar look because they’re exposed to art from THEIR country. Which is why now, OEL creators’ art looks like manga, because they are less exposed to American comics, but manga. It has little to do with their ethnicity, or origin, but rather what they’re exposed to, and what they like better. The manga label to me is an art form, not where the comic book came from per say. I have no problem calling Dramacon a manga because in all respect, the way it tells a story and the art is very very MUCH manga.

To me, OEL creators are not copycats, just working on an art form they love, though some ARE trying to capitalize on the craze. But a lot of OEL creators are working their butts of, with a lot less respect and privilege then mangakas in Japan where manga is considered an art form because they love it. I don’t appreciate people bashing them. (Not you, Gina. I think you told your point. This is just generally).

And you say you don’t read manga because it’s not the same as the one in Japanese. It does not have the quirkiness, the style, the off-beat fashion and Japanese culture, right? I agree. But can’t you see it applies to OEL manga as well? I suppose the novelty value isn’t there because you’re familiar with the Western culture already, but it’s fun to see your own culture sometimes. Which is why I like Dramacon, though that’s because Svetlana was satirizing it a bit, and still being so hilariously honest. Do you think the Japanese like manga because it shows their culture? Of course not, because that’s what’s “normal” to them. They’d find western culture more exotic because they’re not used to it, just like we do for manga. We take it for granted, and so do they. Each creator brings their backgrounds, their thoughts, and yes, their gender and their ethnicity and mixes it all in to bring a wonderful fusion. I love to see a manga based on Japanese folklore, or their modern pop culture (note Nana) but I also love to see Dramacon (about the big otaku trend in America), and The Dreaming (with its Australian and aboriginal influences). And OEL creators deal with issues Japanese manga do not, or from a different perspective. Steady Beat is about growing up and homosexuality taken seriously. (I do realize there ARE mangas out there that treat it seriously, but a lot is smut). OEL manga gives a very unique experience, just like manga gives you a very unique experience as well.

I love manga, but I view it as an art form, and I realize manga is just a way of trying to tell a story artistically. I base my views on a story on whether the story was good, and whether the art expressed the story well. I don’t really care about where the creator is from, so as long as I like it. Japanese creators have something to offer, but so do OEL creators. I love “authentic” manga, don’t get me wrong. I’m a huge shounen and shoujo fan. I love the humor, culture and uniqueness that the “authentic manga” shows us. But I also love the humor, culture, and uniqueness “global manga” shows.

Manga is a medium, an art form. Art should not be limited to one region, one culture. Might as well say only white people can sing pop, black rap, and keep jazz from outside America. I’ll grant it’s more popular IN the country, but if there are people outside interested, how can you possibly stop them from doing what they like? And how can you limit yourself from enjoying them, and seeing the uniqueness of each one?

Try an OEL manga. You might not like it. Fine, go ahead, try another one. I’m by no means saying all OEL is good, but don’t you dare close your mind off just because it’s not familiar to you. After all, manga was totally unfamiliar to the American audience. How many people bashed it? How many said it wasn’t artistic enough? That it was trash? That it wasn’t as good as a novel, or an American comics, that its influences and themes would never fly. Guess what? It’s huge. What makes you think OEL manga can’t be the same, only this time, it’s inferior to “authentic manga”? Each OEL manga is unique in its own way, and put aside everything and enjoy an OEL manga and judge for yourself. It is influenced by manga, but has its own themes and flavors based on its creators.

I love manga because it can reach out and inspire others to follow its path and branch into their own. If you’re going to condemn OEL creators for “following manga” instead of drawing their own stuff, guess what…EVERYTHING is influenced by something previous in its own way. Throw away all novels and music then, because I can assure you each has an influence that crept up in some way. The question is whether or not they do something different with it, not “copy”. And the best of global manga does that.

I hope I didn’t rant too long, but I feel really strongly about OEL manga, and manga in general. Let it GO people. Read the comic book for its own sake, not because the country where it came from. The art and story can be put down to personal tastes if you really don’t like it, but give it a TRY! I personally don’t like Batman, superman, ect. but I will say it has merit. That there IS something in there that make people like it. I’m not saying you have to love OEL manga. Some of you might really miss the exotic locations of Japanese manga, but realize it has its merits and own uniqueness and is LEGIT. And most importantly, READ SOME. You will surprise yourself with what you like.

Joanna Estep's LJ entry about the whole TP mess of recent recaps some of these issues, and why it can be very disappointing and frustrating to make comics the way you want to sometime.
http://jou.livejournal.com/236738.html

Just because people mistakenly call comics from Korea manga doesn't mean it is manga. That's the same as calling all Asian people Chinese. If they all look the same to you, that means you aren't looking hard enough.

I don't blame the artists but the publishers for bastardizing the term. The Manga Bible? What the heck was that? It was a comic version of the bible that used no Japanese manga conventions and wasn't even the trastion TP size. Simply the word was used to move it off shelves and give the ininitiated a skewed introduction to manga.

I am interested in Japan, which is what keeps me reading my manga. An OEL manga can be flipped, B&W, the proper size and use all the speed lines and SD poses it can squish into 220 pages, but it isn't from Japan, doesn't have that cultural spice to it, and therefore, to me, will never be manga.